.325 WSM... not so hot

[Jeff Olsen]

Just a heads up. I've been messing with a BLR in .325 (it's for sale if
anyone wants one) and the published specs for .325 WSM appear to be
optimistic to say the least. Here's some actual chrono'd velocities from a
22" barrel:

200-gn Partition, max load of H4350 per Hogdon: 2700fps (150 fps less than
called for);

Factory 220-gn load: 2640 fps (hardly a .338-killer; I'm getting 200 fps
faster than that with 225's in my .338 WM);

175-gn Sierra, 2 grains short of Hogdon's max: 2710 fps... again, I can
easily beat that with my 22"-barrel 30-06 and 180's!

So anyway, I'm not saying it's useless, but if you want a .338, buy a .338.
The .325 ain't it. I'd say it's more like a glorified 30-06, not that
that's such a bad thing.

I will say that recoil is as advertised: not bad at all.

Right now I'm on the fence as far as keeping the BLR. I bought it as a
lark, something to screw with this winter, but I could use the dough for my
new truck. I did find someone who says he can do a trigger job on it,
though, and that's huge.

-jeff

[n***@YAHOO.COM]

On Tue, 24 Jan 2006 02:24:03 GMT, Jeff Olsen

Post by Jeff Olsen
Just a heads up. I've been messing with a BLR in .325 (it's for sale if
anyone wants one) and the published specs for .325 WSM appear to be
optimistic to say the least. Here's some actual chrono'd velocities from a
200-gn Partition, max load of H4350 per Hogdon: 2700fps (150 fps less than
called for);
Factory 220-gn load: 2640 fps (hardly a .338-killer; I'm getting 200 fps
faster than that with 225's in my .338 WM);
175-gn Sierra, 2 grains short of Hogdon's max: 2710 fps... again, I can
easily beat that with my 22"-barrel 30-06 and 180's!
So anyway, I'm not saying it's useless, but if you want a .338, buy a .338.
The .325 ain't it. I'd say it's more like a glorified 30-06, not that
that's such a bad thing.
I will say that recoil is as advertised: not bad at all.
Right now I'm on the fence as far as keeping the BLR. I bought it as a
lark, something to screw with this winter, but I could use the dough for my
new truck. I did find someone who says he can do a trigger job on it,
though, and that's huge.
-jeff

Uhhh, not much sales experience huh?

[Dick F]

Post by Jeff Olsen
Factory 220-gn load: 2640 fps (hardly a .338-killer; I'm getting 200 fps
faster than that with 225's in my .338 WM);

I know 1 guy who's getting 2845 with 220 gr Sierras and 2940 with 200
gr. Nosler Accubonds. I don't know what powders he's using.

Dick

[TDKozan]

Post by Jeff Olsen
Just a heads up. I've been messing with a BLR in .325 (it's for sale if
anyone wants one) and the published specs for .325 WSM appear to be
optimistic to say the least. Here's some actual chrono'd velocities from a
200-gn Partition, max load of H4350 per Hogdon: 2700fps (150 fps less than
called for);

By whom and in what barrel length?

Post by Jeff Olsen
Factory 220-gn load: 2640 fps (hardly a .338-killer; I'm getting 200 fps
faster than that with 225's in my .338 WM);

So, what's the barrel length in your .338 WM?

Seriously, I'm not slamming you but I always thought that a magnum
cartridge needed a 26" barrel to give reasonable performance. Those
four missing inches could certainly explain the differences you're seeing.

Post by Jeff Olsen
I will say that recoil is as advertised: not bad at all.

That's cool, if nothing else.

-jeff



TK

--
Cogito ergo bibo

[Jeff Olsen]

Post by TDKozan

Post by Jeff Olsen
Just a heads up. I've been messing with a BLR in .325 (it's for sale if
anyone wants one) and the published specs for .325 WSM appear to be
optimistic to say the least. Here's some actual chrono'd velocities from a
200-gn Partition, max load of H4350 per Hogdon: 2700fps (150 fps less than
called for);

By whom and in what barrel length?

By Hodgdon on their website. I didn't note the barrel length; probably 24"
or 26".

Post by TDKozan

Post by Jeff Olsen
Factory 220-gn load: 2640 fps (hardly a .338-killer; I'm getting 200 fps
faster than that with 225's in my .338 WM);

So, what's the barrel length in your .338 WM?

My .338 is an XCR and has a 26" barrel.

Post by TDKozan
Seriously, I'm not slamming you but I always thought that a magnum
cartridge needed a 26" barrel to give reasonable performance. Those
four missing inches could certainly explain the differences you're seeing.

It could be; but if so, they've misrepresented it in another way since
they've stated (somewhere <g>) that their new short mags perform well from
short barrels. The light, short rifle is a key ingrediant of the whole
short-mag sales pitch.

Look, I'm realistic about these things. I know that the book velocities are
from test barrels that are generally longer, and faster, than factory
barrels. I've never seem factory ammo chrono like it says it will, EVER.
I reload for .223, 7mm-08, .308, 30-06, 30/30, .358 Win, .338, .325 WSM,
45/70, 44 mag, etc, and I've loaded many thousands of rounds and owned a
chrono for years. With every single one of those cartridges I'm able to
get close to the velocities in the books. They all have shorter barrels
than the book test barrels except my .338.

I have a pretty good understanding of how published specs USUALLY relate to
reality, and how barrel length relates. This particular cartridge just
seems particularly egregious in this regard. Or let me put it this way.
If you were getting 325 fps less with 180's than they claim (they say 3060
fps, I see 2700+ fps), and factory ammo was chrono'ing over 200 fps slower
than advertised, you'd probably feel the same way, right? It just isn't
even close. What I was sold (IE told to expect) and what I got are way far
apart.

All that said, I may keep the BLR after all. It shoots the 200--gn
Partition very well and I found someone who does trigger jobs on them. I
bought a box of Accubonds to try, too. Plus, it looks to be the last
caliber that Winchester will invent. And BLR's are pretty neat-o gadgets.

(oh- and in reply to the one poster, ironically I am a professional
salesman. I certainly understand that what i said about the .325 WSM was
hardly a good pitch <g>! But true is true. I wouldn't misrepresent
anything.)

-jeff

Post by TDKozan

Post by Jeff Olsen
I will say that recoil is as advertised: not bad at all.

That's cool, if nothing else.
-jeff
TK
--
Cogito ergo bibo

[Natman]

On Sun, 29 Jan 2006 03:51:02 GMT, Jeff Olsen

Post by Jeff Olsen
(oh- and in reply to the one poster, ironically I am a professional
salesman. I certainly understand that what i said about the .325 WSM was
hardly a good pitch <g>! But true is true. I wouldn't misrepresent
anything.)

You can trust me, I'm a salesman! <G>

How's your Rem 7 in 358 working out?

[MyDogReese]

Post by TDKozan
So, what's the barrel length in your .338 WM?
Seriously, I'm not slamming you but I always thought that a magnum
cartridge needed a 26" barrel to give reasonable performance. Those
four missing inches could certainly explain the differences you're
seeing.

Not in the WSM line. The standard barrel length for a WSM is 22 to 23
inches. I was told that the short, fat cartridge provides the space for
burning that normally takes place in the barrel, hence the shorter
legnth. The only reason I know is that I questioned the barrel length of
my Browning Micro Hunter in .325 (bigger and better recoil pad makes up
for the missing 1/4" in overall length) before I bought it. After
checking, all WSMs come from the factory (Win, Browning, etc) with 22,
23, and a few 24" barrels, but none with the 26" you need for a Weatherby
or its ilk. Most likely the difference is between a tight bolt-action
chamber and the somewhat looser lever action of the BLR.

BTW, I have not Chorno'ed my .325 WSM yet, but when I do, I'll publish
the numbers. I suspect that they will be a little higher than those for
the BLR lever gun, but then who cares? The dead animal doesn't know the
difference. I believe that the .325 WSM will give me a little more power
and a larger wound than a .30 caliber (.30-06 or .300 Win Magnum) and can
take down an elk, moose, or bear at up to 250 yards (the longest I shoot
big game). If I want more, Then my .375 H&H or .416 Lazzaroni will do. If
I want smaller, then my Win 94 in .307 WInchester is good out to 250
yards and is a real deer killer (never had to fire more than a single
shot) or the old .30-06 is always handy. I have a Weatherby .257 and a
.30-378, but haven't shot them in years. In fact, I have never hunted
with either of them, just killed a lot of paper.

MDR

[Jeff Olsen]

Post by Natman
On Sun, 29 Jan 2006 03:51:02 GMT, Jeff Olsen

Post by Jeff Olsen
(oh- and in reply to the one poster, ironically I am a professional
salesman. I certainly understand that what i said about the .325 WSM was
hardly a good pitch <g>! But true is true. I wouldn't misrepresent
anything.)

You can trust me, I'm a salesman! <G>
How's your Rem 7 in 358 working out?

Great! My "core" battery of hunting rifles is the .358 M7, a rebarreled
(Pac-Nor) 22" 30-06 that might as well be a .300 mag it shoots so fast, and
my .338 WM, a M700 XCR that flat-out SHOOTS box-stock. Anyway, the .358
gave me fits early on; I couldn't find a load that shot to save my life. I
finally sent it back down to Pac-Nor and they cut the throat longer, and
then i was able to find a sweet spot or two and now i have good, accurate,
fast (for .358) loads with the 200-gn Hornady (2640 fps, 1.25 MOA), the
225-gn Sierra (2520 fps, sub-MOA) and the 225-gn Partition (2500 fps, MOA).
I filled my doe/spike tag with it this year on a spike blacktail. It did
exactly what I hoped: dropped him on the spot even though the shot hit
farther back than I intended and went through the back of the lungs. So far
the two deer I've killed with .358 both dropped on the spot. Minimal meat
damage. Beats tracking a wounded deer! I think .358 is about the ultimate
close to mid-range caliber for deer hunting; I love it.

I also carried it one day up elk hunting, a day I knew I'd be in the timber.
I felt completely at ease with that 225-gn Partition in the pipe.

I bought the .325 BLR on the wild-hair thinking that it'd make a great
timber elk rifle with some reach, too, as opposed to the .358. My .338 WM,
the XCR with the 26" barrel, is a bit cumbersome in the woods.

-jeff

[Jeff Olsen]

Post by MyDogReese

Post by TDKozan
So, what's the barrel length in your .338 WM?
Seriously, I'm not slamming you but I always thought that a magnum
cartridge needed a 26" barrel to give reasonable performance. Those
four missing inches could certainly explain the differences you're
seeing.

Not in the WSM line. The standard barrel length for a WSM is 22 to 23
inches. I was told that the short, fat cartridge provides the space for
burning that normally takes place in the barrel, hence the shorter
legnth.

Yeah, that's what I remember reading somewhere too.

Post by MyDogReese
w 24" barrels, but none with the 26" you need for a Weatherby
or its ilk. Most likely the difference is between a tight bolt-action
chamber and the somewhat looser lever action of the BLR.

The BLR is essentially a lever-action bolt gun. The bolt locks up just like
a bolt gun. Not to say mine might not have a slow barrel; but I don't think
it's a "loose" action.

Post by MyDogReese
BTW, I have not Chorno'ed my .325 WSM yet, but when I do, I'll publish
the numbers. I suspect that they will be a little higher than those for
the BLR lever gun, but then who cares? The dead animal doesn't know the
difference.

I'll be curious to see what your numbers are. Are you handloading for it?
What powder are you using? I've been messing with H4350.

As far as lethality within 250 yards, you are correct. A couple hundred fps
doesn't really matter.

Post by MyDogReese
I believe that the .325 WSM will give me a little more power
and a larger wound than a .30 caliber (.30-06 or .300 Win Magnum) and can
take down an elk, moose, or bear at up to 250 yards (the longest I shoot
big game).

Yeah, but I had hoped for what was advertised: a short action .338,
basically. What I got is just a slight upgrade from my 30-06.

Still very useful though, that's for sure.

-jeff

[Jeff Olsen]

Post by MyDogReese
I believe that the .325 WSM will give me a little more power
and a larger wound than a .30 caliber (.30-06 or .300 Win Magnum) and can
take down an elk, moose, or bear at up to 250 yards (the longest I shoot
big game).

I wanted to note that it looks like I'll be lucky to get 2700 fps with the
200-grain bullets in that .325 WSM BLR. The root of my dissatisfaction is
that I would guess that i could get 2700 fps with 200-gn bullets from my 22"
30-06, or dang close (I get 2825 fps with 180's from the '06). Granted, my
30-06 has a very fast barrel, but nonetheless the .325 WSM was NOT sold to
the public as something that matched or slightly exceeded a 30-06... it was
sold as a caliber that matched or slightly exceeded the .338 Win Mag (at
least in foot-pounds of energy delivered). From what I'm seeing, that's
laughably overstated.

-jeff

[Dick F]

Post by Jeff Olsen
I wanted to note that it looks like I'll be lucky to get 2700 fps with the
200-grain bullets in that .325 WSM BLR. The root of my dissatisfaction is
that I would guess that i could get 2700 fps with 200-gn bullets from my 22"
30-06, or dang close (I get 2825 fps with 180's from the '06). Granted, my
30-06 has a very fast barrel, but nonetheless the .325 WSM was NOT sold to
the public as something that matched or slightly exceeded a 30-06... it was
sold as a caliber that matched or slightly exceeded the .338 Win Mag (at
least in foot-pounds of energy delivered). From what I'm seeing, that's
laughably overstated.
-jeff

I posted your data on another forum to see what would happen. There's 1
guy there who has a 325 and has chrono'd his handloads as follows:

M70 with 22" Pac-Nor barrel
Sierra 220 gr, 2845 fps, avg .88" groups with H4350 powder
Nosler Accubonds, 200 gr 2940 fps, avg .49" groups with Hunter powder

Sounds to me like your factory loads could use some improvement. Maybe
you should reload for it. While these loads don't compare with a .338,
they're far better than any 30-06.
Dick

[k***@islandnet.com]

Post by Jeff Olsen

Post by MyDogReese
I believe that the .325 WSM will give me a little more power
and a larger wound than a .30 caliber (.30-06 or .300 Win Magnum) and can
take down an elk, moose, or bear at up to 250 yards (the longest I shoot
big game).

I wanted to note that it looks like I'll be lucky to get 2700 fps with the
200-grain bullets in that .325 WSM BLR. The root of my dissatisfaction is
that I would guess that i could get 2700 fps with 200-gn bullets from my 22"
30-06, or dang close (I get 2825 fps with 180's from the '06). Granted, my
30-06 has a very fast barrel, but nonetheless the .325 WSM was NOT sold to
the public as something that matched or slightly exceeded a 30-06... it was
sold as a caliber that matched or slightly exceeded the .338 Win Mag (at
least in foot-pounds of energy delivered). From what I'm seeing, that's
laughably overstated.
-jeff

Ammoguide shows 2680 fps as it's hottest 30-06 200gr load. With a 22"
barrel I'd expect you'd see about 2600fps.
Winchester claims 2950 fps for a 325 WSM 200 gr. I'd say that's a
significant advantage to the 325.

[Jeff Olsen]

Post by Jeff Olsen

Post by MyDogReese
I believe that the .325 WSM will give me a little more power
and a larger wound than a .30 caliber (.30-06 or .300 Win Magnum) and can
take down an elk, moose, or bear at up to 250 yards (the longest I shoot
big game).

I wanted to note that it looks like I'll be lucky to get 2700 fps with the
200-grain bullets in that .325 WSM BLR. The root of my dissatisfaction is
that I would guess that i could get 2700 fps with 200-gn bullets from my 22"
30-06, or dang close (I get 2825 fps with 180's from the '06). Granted, my
30-06 has a very fast barrel, but nonetheless the .325 WSM was NOT sold to
the public as something that matched or slightly exceeded a 30-06... it was
sold as a caliber that matched or slightly exceeded the .338 Win Mag (at
least in foot-pounds of energy delivered). From what I'm seeing, that's
laughably overstated.
-jeff

I'm just going to keep this going all by myself <g>!

I wanted to add that on it's merits, a 200-gn 8mm bullet at 2700 fps from a
hunting-lenth factory barrel, the .325 is a very useful caliber. I just
wish they'd sold it that way rather than puffing up the numbers so much. A
guy who thinks he is getting a short-action .338 WM, and who owns a chrono,
is gonna be PISSED. Mark my words.

-jeff

[Jeff Olsen]

Post by Dick F

Post by Jeff Olsen
I wanted to note that it looks like I'll be lucky to get 2700 fps with the
200-grain bullets in that .325 WSM BLR. The root of my dissatisfaction is
that I would guess that i could get 2700 fps with 200-gn bullets from my 22"
30-06, or dang close (I get 2825 fps with 180's from the '06). Granted, my
30-06 has a very fast barrel, but nonetheless the .325 WSM was NOT sold to
the public as something that matched or slightly exceeded a 30-06... it was
sold as a caliber that matched or slightly exceeded the .338 Win Mag (at
least in foot-pounds of energy delivered). From what I'm seeing, that's
laughably overstated.
-jeff

I posted your data on another forum to see what would happen. There's 1
M70 with 22" Pac-Nor barrel
Sierra 220 gr, 2845 fps, avg .88" groups with H4350 powder
Nosler Accubonds, 200 gr 2940 fps, avg .49" groups with Hunter powder
Sounds to me like your factory loads could use some improvement. Maybe
you should reload for it. While these loads don't compare with a .338,
they're far better than any 30-06.
Dick

Interesting! I think that proves I have a slow barrel. That said, I have a
Pac-Nor barrel on my 30-06 (and my .358 too) and that 30-06 is one fast
sumbitch. I get 3100 fps, safely, with 150's from my '06 for example. So
I think what we are seeing here is that he has a very fast barrel and I have
a very slow barrel on my BLR.

However, you misunderstand me. I AM handloading for it. The velocities I
am reporting are at, or right at, the "max" that is being published so far
for the .325. So when I say I'm getting 2700 fps with a 200-gn Accubond,
that's with max charge of H4350. Just so you know.

I'll soon be going over max, though. My primers are still round. There's
still room in the case for more powder. That injustice shall not stand!

:-)

-jeff

[Jeff Olsen]

Post by k***@islandnet.com

Post by Jeff Olsen

Post by MyDogReese
I believe that the .325 WSM will give me a little more power
and a larger wound than a .30 caliber (.30-06 or .300 Win Magnum) and can
take down an elk, moose, or bear at up to 250 yards (the longest I shoot
big game).

I wanted to note that it looks like I'll be lucky to get 2700 fps with the
200-grain bullets in that .325 WSM BLR. The root of my dissatisfaction is
that I would guess that i could get 2700 fps with 200-gn bullets from my 22"
30-06, or dang close (I get 2825 fps with 180's from the '06).
-jeff

Ammoguide shows 2680 fps as it's hottest 30-06 200gr load. With a 22"
barrel I'd expect you'd see about 2600fps.
Winchester claims 2950 fps for a 325 WSM 200 gr. I'd say that's a
significant advantage to the 325.

But the .325 doesn't deliver. I can get 2700 fps with 200-grainers with my
particular 30-06, I'm pretty sure. Or dang close. Yesterday, I shot max
loads of 4350 behind a 200-gn partition out of the .325 and they averaged
2665 fps. And that is the root of this whole thread. I'm not complaining
about the claimed ballistics of the .325; that'd be GREAT! I'm complaining
about the actual ballistics of the .325 from my rifle.

Both of the actual rifles in the above paragraph have 22" barrels and are
actual rifles sitting in my safe.

On the same day, I shot my "plinking" load from my .338 WIn Mag, which is a
200-gn Ballistic Tip several grains under max. 2875 fps average. That's
what I was told to expect from the .325 and I'm pissed that I didn't get it,
I got a 30-06. I alread had one of those.

-jeff

[MyDogReese]

Post by Jeff Olsen
I wanted to note that it looks like I'll be lucky to get 2700 fps
with the 200-grain bullets in that .325 WSM BLR. The root of my
dissatisfaction is that I would guess that i could get 2700 fps with
200-gn bullets from my 22" 30-06, or dang close (I get 2825 fps with
180's from the '06). -jeff

Jeff,

I was surprised to see your comment about the barrels. If you can get 3100
fps or better from a .30-06 with a 150 bullet, count yourself extremely
lucky as that is Win Mag territory. I have a custom Christensen .30-06
(based on a Rem Action) and get about 2,900 to 3,000 fps using R19 or VV560
with a BarnesX (and get .7 MOA). I am quite happy with this, but if you can
get 3,100 fps safely, WOW.

As far as the BLR is concerned, I disagree with you that it locks up as
tight as a bolt action gun. No lever action or falling block rifle locks up
as tightly as a bolt action because the rotary locking lugs of the bolt
action serve to lock and seal the chamber tighter than the lever can lock
down its bolt. Howver, it is, in my mind, inconsequential, because, (a) the
difference, although measureable, is so slight, and (b) I love using my
Lever Gun (Win 94 AE in .307, 150 grain bullet at 2500 fps) for deer
hunting out to 250 yards, anyway. With the 170 grain Nosler Partition at
2400 fps, I would use this on moose and elk out to 150 yards, easy.

I'm sorry you're dissappointed in your rifle. Its tough to shell out good
money and have post purchase dissonance. Happened to me with a matched pair
of shotguns that had to have the stocks bent for me (I'm a lefty). Never
worked out and I finally had to have both guns restocked to make them fit
me. Cost me $7,000 and although they're beautiful, I still have doubts
about their usefulness. I wish you better luck.

I purchased the .325 because I wanted a light recoiling, short-action
Remington 8mm Magnum, not a .338 Win Mag. I think the 8mm Mag was another
cartridge that never was given its due and it can handle mostly anything
that walks this continent. I recently acquired a Winchester Model 70 (LH)
in .375 H&H to handle anything the .325 can't. Never wanted a .338 Win Mag
(or a Weatherby .340 either) because the kick ruined my accuracy, and, as
you can tell from the Christensen .30-06, I like accuracy (this gun, with
scope, weighs less than 6.5 lbs, too!). I found the.325 was the most gun I
could shoot accurately. The .375 H&H and .416 Lazzaroni I have, I can shoot
accurately enough, but not sub MOA. Nothing to do with the guns (they both
can shoot sub-MOA); its just what I can handle.

MDR

[k***@islandnet.com]

Post by MyDogReese

Post by Jeff Olsen
I wanted to note that it looks like I'll be lucky to get 2700 fps
with the 200-grain bullets in that .325 WSM BLR. The root of my
dissatisfaction is that I would guess that i could get 2700 fps with
200-gn bullets from my 22" 30-06, or dang close (I get 2825 fps with
180's from the '06). -jeff

Jeff,
I was surprised to see your comment about the barrels. If you can get 3100
fps or better from a .30-06 with a 150 bullet, count yourself extremely
lucky as that is Win Mag territory. I have a custom Christensen .30-06
(based on a Rem Action) and get about 2,900 to 3,000 fps using R19 or VV560
with a BarnesX (and get .7 MOA). I am quite happy with this, but if you can
get 3,100 fps safely, WOW.

Hodgdon show 62.0 gr of h4350 propelling 150 gr of nosler bt to 3068
fps with a cup of only 48400 psi. This is witha compressed powder
charge but obviously 48400 psi leaves a lot of room for experimentation
in a modern rifle. A barnes or swift might make it with no changes. For
interest ammoguide lists a max load for 150 gr @ 3132 fps, 200 gr @
2680 fps.

[Natman]

On Fri, 17 Feb 2006 08:17:16 -0500, MyDogReese

Post by MyDogReese
As far as the BLR is concerned, I disagree with you that it locks up as
tight as a bolt action gun. No lever action or falling block rifle locks up
as tightly as a bolt action because the rotary locking lugs of the bolt
action serve to lock and seal the chamber tighter than the lever can lock
down its bolt.

The BLR *has* locking lugs that rotate to lock into the receiver. The
bolt is moved by the lever rather than a bolt handle.

[Jeff Olsen]

Post by MyDogReese

Post by Jeff Olsen
I wanted to note that it looks like I'll be lucky to get 2700 fps
with the 200-grain bullets in that .325 WSM BLR. The root of my
dissatisfaction is that I would guess that i could get 2700 fps with
200-gn bullets from my 22" 30-06, or dang close (I get 2825 fps with
180's from the '06). -jeff

Jeff,
I was surprised to see your comment about the barrels. If you can get 3100
fps or better from a .30-06 with a 150 bullet, count yourself extremely
lucky as that is Win Mag territory. I have a custom Christensen .30-06
(based on a Rem Action) and get about 2,900 to 3,000 fps using R19 or VV560
with a BarnesX (and get .7 MOA). I am quite happy with this, but if you can
get 3,100 fps safely, WOW.

WOW is right, wow is what I said, too! That's from a chrono I trust, and I
worked up to those speeds so I saw it blow right through 3000 fps, 3050,
etc.

The 3100 fps is a max load of H4350 per the Hodgdon mini-manual. FWIW,
their data is pushing 3100 fps too (3078 IIRC). Anyway, I stopped there.
Primers were flat, but I've seen flatter, and I figured might as well quit
while i was ahead! The barrel is a 22" Pac-Nor Supermatch.

Post by MyDogReese
As far as the BLR is concerned, I disagree with you that it locks up as
tight as a bolt action gun. No lever action or falling block rifle locks up
as tightly as a bolt action because the rotary locking lugs of the bolt
action serve to lock and seal the chamber tighter than the lever can lock
down its bolt. Howver, it is, in my mind, inconsequential, because, (a) the
difference, although measureable, is so slight, and (b) I love using my
Lever Gun (Win 94 AE in .307, 150 grain bullet at 2500 fps) for deer
hunting out to 250 yards, anyway. With the 170 grain Nosler Partition at
2400 fps, I would use this on moose and elk out to 150 yards, easy.

But the BLR locks up differently than a '94, does it not? I'm no expert. As
I understand it the BLR has a rotating bolt head, similar to an AR15, and
very similar to a bolt gun, and not like the regular lever gun action.

Post by MyDogReese
I'm sorry you're dissappointed in your rifle. Its tough to shell out good
money and have post purchase dissonance.

Well... the thing actually seems to shoot well, the action is very slick but
tight, and it feels good in my hands. I wouldn't say I was dissapointed,
really. Just that I was pointing out that the ballistics I'm seeing are so
far off from the claimed ballistics that I thought others should be aware of
it.

Post by MyDogReese
I purchased the .325 because I wanted a light recoiling, short-action
Remington 8mm Magnum, not a .338 Win Mag. The .375 H&H and .416 Lazzaroni I

have, I can shoot

Post by MyDogReese
accurately enough, but not sub MOA. Nothing to do with the guns (they both
can shoot sub-MOA); its just what I can handle.

Those are good points. It's nice to hear someone admit that. Most guys are
too macho. Truth is, they don't actually SHOOT their big rifles. I shoot
my .338 enough to know that it shoots better than I can shoot it (I can
shoot it MOA but I know it's a better rifle than that, in fact it always
amazes me that i shoot it MOA because I have a very hard time squeezing the
trigger on that rifle)... anyway, I may learn to like the .325 BLR. I
bought it for elk and it may work well enough for that to actually get
carried in the woods <g>. I bought some RL15 and found someone crazy enough
to publish hot loads for it on the internet... I intend to try his loads!

-jeff

[Natman]

On Sat, 18 Feb 2006 08:39:40 GMT, Jeff Olsen

Post by Jeff Olsen

Post by MyDogReese
As far as the BLR is concerned, I disagree with you that it locks up as
tight as a bolt action gun. No lever action or falling block rifle locks up
as tightly as a bolt action because the rotary locking lugs of the bolt
action serve to lock and seal the chamber tighter than the lever can lock
down its bolt. Howver, it is, in my mind, inconsequential, because, (a) the
difference, although measureable, is so slight, and (b) I love using my
Lever Gun (Win 94 AE in .307, 150 grain bullet at 2500 fps) for deer
hunting out to 250 yards, anyway. With the 170 grain Nosler Partition at
2400 fps, I would use this on moose and elk out to 150 yards, easy.

But the BLR locks up differently than a '94, does it not? I'm no expert. As
I understand it the BLR has a rotating bolt head, similar to an AR15, and
very similar to a bolt gun, and not like the regular lever gun action.

Take your unloaded BLR and open the action. As you close the action
you can watch the bolt head rotate into place. With the action open
you can see the grooves in the receiver that the bolt head fits into.

[Jeff Olsen]

Post by Natman
On Sat, 18 Feb 2006 08:39:40 GMT, Jeff Olsen

Post by Jeff Olsen

Post by MyDogReese
As far as the BLR is concerned, I disagree with you that it locks up as
tight as a bolt action gun. No lever action or falling block rifle locks up
as tightly as a bolt action because the rotary locking lugs of the bolt
action serve to lock and seal the chamber tighter than the lever can lock
down its bolt.

But the BLR locks up differently than a '94, does it not? I'm no expert. As
I understand it the BLR has a rotating bolt head, similar to an AR15, and
very similar to a bolt gun, and not like the regular lever gun action.

Take your unloaded BLR and open the action. As you close the action
you can watch the bolt head rotate into place. With the action open
you can see the grooves in the receiver that the bolt head fits into.

It's actually impossible to see the head of the bolt rotate up there, or at
least I've never seen it. Maybe with a flashlight. It does it at the very
end of the travel and it's the very end of the bolt.

The hard thing with BLR's is finding the lands! I do that on my bolt
rifles, with all the various bullets I use, and it is damn hard with the BLR
because the tactile feedback is so wierd in that last bit of bolt travel...
Not impossible, but a real PITA.

I like this rifle. I have just had to adjust my attitude as to what .325
WSM is and isn't, at least in the case of this rifle, with the loads I've
tried so far. Other than the (lack of) velocity, I like it a lot. It
shoots 200-gn Partitions really well and the new pistol grip stock feels
much better to me, and handles recoil better, than the straight stock. Plus
the barrel is floated under that Schnabel foreend.

I bought a can of RL15; I may be able to get closer to what i'd hoped for
with that powder. Also, I will probably go on an expedition over book MAX
charges of H4350 and see if I can find where "it" is. What the hell. I've
seen stuff on the 'net from a couple other guys who's loads are several
grains hotter than the book max loads.

-jeff

[Natman]

On Sun, 19 Feb 2006 03:59:54 GMT, Jeff Olsen

Post by Jeff Olsen
It's actually impossible to see the head of the bolt rotate up there, or at
least I've never seen it. Maybe with a flashlight. It does it at the very
end of the travel and it's the very end of the bolt.

Perhaps Browning has changed the design slightly, because on my 358 it
is quite easy to watch the bolt head turn. At any rate it *does* turn
and locks up quite nicely. Which is why the BLR is available in "bolt
action calibers" like the short magnums.

If I were you I would buy a bunch of 325 WSM brass NOW while it is
still available. If Winchester isn't going to be making any more bolt
action rifles in it to drive the market.....

Post by Jeff Olsen
I bought a can of RL15; I may be able to get closer to what i'd hoped for
with that powder. Also, I will probably go on an expedition over book MAX
charges of H4350 and see if I can find where "it" is. What the hell. I've
seen stuff on the 'net from a couple other guys who's loads are several
grains hotter than the book max loads.

There are lots of fools on the net who publish loads that are *way*
too hot. It might not blow up their rifle; can't guarantee it won't
blow up yours. Caveat emptor.

I can't see the point in beating up your gun to go for the last
possible 50 fps, the game won't be able to tell the difference.

[Jeff Olsen]

Post by Natman
On Sun, 19 Feb 2006 03:59:54 GMT, Jeff Olsen

Post by Jeff Olsen
It's actually impossible to see the head of the bolt rotate up there, or at
least I've never seen it. Maybe with a flashlight. It does it at the very
end of the travel and it's the very end of the bolt.

Perhaps Browning has changed the design slightly, because on my 358 it
is quite easy to watch the bolt head turn. At any rate it *does* turn
and locks up quite nicely. Which is why the BLR is available in "bolt
action calibers" like the short magnums.

Yeah, gotcha. I had a .358 BLR for a while and it was real hard to see the
bolt head rotate up there. Not that I tried that hard, but one time in
particular I was real curious to see it happen and couldn't.

Post by Natman
If I were you I would buy a bunch of 325 WSM brass NOW while it is
still available. If Winchester isn't going to be making any more bolt
action rifles in it to drive the market.....

That is a VERY good idea. I will do that tomorrow.

Post by Natman

Post by Jeff Olsen
I bought a can of RL15; I may be able to get closer to what i'd hoped for
with that powder. Also, I will probably go on an expedition over book MAX
charges of H4350 and see if I can find where "it" is. What the hell. I've
seen stuff on the 'net from a couple other guys who's loads are several
grains hotter than the book max loads.

There are lots of fools on the net who publish loads that are *way*
too hot. It might not blow up their rifle; can't guarantee it won't
blow up yours. Caveat emptor.

I take it slow. For my .358, the one I built on a Model 7 action, I'm well
over published max loads and it's fine. For my 30-06 and .338 I've taken
them up to book max for the loads that matter (elk) but i generally shoot at
pressures well below max, for brass life if nothing else.

Post by Natman
I can't see the point in beating up your gun to go for the last
possible 50 fps, the game won't be able to tell the difference.

I wouldn't do it for 50 fps... but... I'm stalled BELOW 2700 fps with 200-gn
bullets. If that's all the sizzle there is to be had, I might as well carry
ol' faithful, my 30-06. Mostly I want to see if this rifle/cartridge is
capable of being a significant upgrade to the 30-06. So i hear you, and
I'll try to avoid going for that bleeding-edge of pressure for just 50 fps,
believe me. I want more than 50 fps, or else I'll just keep it where it's
at, since it shoots Partitions real well with this load, or I'll sell it.

It looks like RL15 might hold promise. I've had good luck with RL22, RL7,
and RL19 in other rifles/calibers.

Thanks for the reply! I'm trying to find brass tomorrow. If nothing else,
I'd think I could make it from 300 WSM brass, and I know there's a bunch of
those rifles out there...

-jeff

[MyDogReese]

Post by Natman
The BLR *has* locking lugs that rotate to lock into the receiver. The
bolt is moved by the lever rather than a bolt handle.

Mea Culpa. I stand corrected. I didn't think that Browning BLRs locked this
way.

MDR

[MyDogReese]

Post by TDKozan
So, what's the barrel length in your .338 WM?
Seriously, I'm not slamming you but I always thought that a magnum
cartridge needed a 26" barrel to give reasonable performance. Those
four missing inches could certainly explain the differences you're
seeing.

Not in the WSM line. The standard barrel length for a WSM is 22 to 23
inches. I was told that the short, fat cartridge provides the space for
burning that normally takes place in the barrel, hence the shorter
legnth. The only reason I know is that I questioned the barrel length of
my Browning Micro Hunter in .325 (bigger and better recoil pad makes up
for the missing 1/4" in overall length) before I bought it. After
checking, all WSMs come from the factory (Win, Browning, etc) with 22,
23, and a few 24" barrels, but none with the 26" you need for a Weatherby
or its ilk. Most likely the difference is between a tight bolt-action
chamber and the somewhat looser lever action of the BLR.

BTW, I have not Chorno'ed my .325 WSM yet, but when I do, I'll publish
the numbers. I suspect that they will be a little higher than those for
the BLR lever gun, but then who cares? The dead animal doesn't know the
difference. I believe that the .325 WSM will give me a little more power
and a larger wound than a .30 caliber (.30-06 or .300 Win Magnum) and can
take down an elk, moose, or bear at up to 250 yards (the longest I shoot
big game). If I want more, Then my .375 H&H or .416 Lazzaroni will do. If
I want smaller, then my Win 94 in .307 WInchester is good out to 250
yards and is a real deer killer (never had to fire more than a single
shot) or the old .30-06 is always handy. I have a Weatherby .257 and a
.30-378, but haven't shot them in years. In fact, I have never hunted
with either of them, just killed a lot of paper.

MDR